詹妮弗Yoffy00:06

欢迎来到完美结合。我Jennifer Yoffy Yoffy出版社的创始人兼出版商在亚特兰大,格鲁吉亚。188bet金宝搏登真人官网这是一个播客,我们和艺术家谈谈他们的旅程,他们是如何在哪里,什么对与错把他们一路走来,和它们的标题下。

在这节课中,我们跟丹尼尔·米尔诺尔最酷的生物。丹尼尔·米尔诺尔曾经作为香水模型和一个热水浴缸安装程序,但更好的被称为改革后的记者,摄影师和作家,现再次执行这些职责他的角色作为广告创意的传道者,世界上最重要的独立的发布平台,他住在新墨西哥州和他大部分的成功归功于几个移器类型,好心地帮助他。他是一个丈夫,叔叔和弟弟,儿子,四次。他部分流利的西班牙语,还可以骑滑板,有史以来第一次拿起吉他,他现在后悔没有做几十年前的东西。强迫性杂志门将,他相信印刷的力量,以一个人的时间减慢,阅读纸质书,摆脱束缚的社会媒体和交谈的一个邻居如果你真的想知道世界上正在发生的事情。他失望的美国名人的力量体系结构在很大程度上,以及手机减少了大部分的人口来完成和僵尸。他梦想的裁员,写一些令人难忘的和生活在拉丁美洲。我们谈论几乎所有这些东西的播客。让我们欢迎丹尼尔·米尔纳。

这个播客一般来说就是一场旅程,艺术家的旅程和右转的,错误的把你在这个过程中,你认为一个右转,最后被一个错误的转弯,反之亦然。我认为你多,你知道的,当然任何我能想到的,适应你的莫,对吧?我的意思是,你有,从外面看来,能够保持很围绕什么是工作,什么不是为你工作。当一些不为你工作,你做出改变,我认为这是难以置信的,很难做。并不是大多数人所做的,他们在思考它不能做的不同,或没有人,没有人呢我想的方式。所以,你知道,你放弃摄影两次。和我的意思是商业摄影。它看起来像你没有离开,因为你的爱摄影几乎是相反的。就像你喜欢它这么多,你想要摆脱它的商业预期。你会说这是准确的吗?

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔03:09

是的,完全正确。我喜欢摄影。我的意思是,我想想。这些天我很少有机会实际工作项目。我认为,在过去的一年里,我花了一天的总工作项目;我想我称之为一个实际的项目。这是我一直在做了几年。,我爱摄影,它还是一样具有挑战性的现在是当我第一次拿起相机,我甚至还没有远程触及表面。我永远不会成为一个卓越的摄影师。我认为只有少数的每一代。 I certainly have never really even given myself the opportunity to be a transcendent photographer, but quitting was really the way that I learned that there was a greener pasture for me out there. I knew early on I didn't fit in the industry, the kind of work that I wanted to do and how I viewed photography was not in line with the commercial industry, whether editorial, commercial, advertising, any of that. And I dabbled in all of that. I studied photojournalism, but knew even before I got out of school, the odds of making a living in America as a photojournalist were tricky to begin with. And then realizing that I didn't want to be a classic photojournalist. I kind of felt more like a documentary photographer more than journalist. I wasn't so much consumed with the time element and the news angle. I was more concerned about the longer story. But the real death knell to death knell for me was I never wanted to be known. I grew up in the country, I grew up very independent. And you know my goal in life is to disappear. I have this reoccurring dream where I'm laying on my back in like some primordial forest and this piece of like clear film falls down from the sky and it covers me and I'm suddenly erased from the memory of everyone on the planet and I and I start over. And I can navigate the world without a single person knowing that I ever existed. So that's the kind of twisted, reoccurring dream I have. So that does not bode well for someone being a photographer, because I just never cared, I just wanted to be in the field and make pictures. And I realized in '97, that I got out of school '92 by '97, I was like, there's no career for me here, unless I want to be somebody else's photographer, you know, if I want to, if I want to join the mold that already exists, sure, I can be a photographer, and I was getting assignments and work. And you know, I was shooting all kinds of things. But to your point, when I would, I would make changes. That to me didn't really seem that profound. But my colleagues and friends

詹妮弗Yoffy05:49

失去了他们的头脑....

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔05:50

他们失去了他们的想法。我的意思是,有次我喜欢,讨厌邮件的人。你知道,我放弃了在97年,第一次与柯达公司找到了一份工作。这是太棒了。他们给了我一个公司的车,我有保险。柯达就像当时的西部,这也是一件令人愉快的事情。但是我学到了很多,和我一起工作的人都非常聪明。我学会了这历史的柯达,我不知道。但我知道那是永远不会成为一个职业。我当时想,好吧,我只是,26岁或30。 I'm never going to be here forever. And so that was a relief of knowing that this was not some, you know, place I was going to be forever. But when I quit Kodak, and went back to being a photographer, but this was in 99, I went back to being a photojournalist to being a wedding photographer. In 99, nobody, I mean, this was prior to the bubble, this was prior to really digital exploding into the market. I had friends and colleagues who were like, so insulted. I remember being in New York at Photoplus Expo, this is a this is hilarious to me. I'm at Photoplus Expo, I'm with several consultants, photo agents consultants, and then a crowd of like, what I would call high end commercial photographers, none of whom I knew, but I knew who they were, but I didn't know them personally. And I was like, I'm gonna do a little experiment here. So we're making introductions. And it comes to me and I go, Hi, I'm a wedding photographer, and the looks on their faces. And then one of the agents I knew really well, I didn't know anyone else in the circle, but literally, it was like, they just ran away from me as fast as they could. And the agent looks at me and goes, why did you do that, you know, don't ever introduce yourself... and I wanted to see what would happen. And that to me was great. And then I probably should have never gone back to working full time. But I did. And from, from 99 to like 2010 I had by far, in terms of like, my revenue and commercial. By far the best run that I'd had, you know, but I knew my heart was not in it. It was never going to be me in the long run. And so I quit for real.

詹妮弗Yoffy08:11

嗯,你设法创建一个情况下你可以使用你的摄影知识谋生没有拍摄其他任何人。所以你有一个模型?还是你只是把它作为你走吗?

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔08:25

我做了起来。我没有一个模型,因为每个人都告诉我不要这样做。在一个星期二下午,我不干了,我删除了我的电子邮件帐户。我和我的妻子在我身后说,我完成了,我要搬到圣达菲,全职。然后来回移动,因为她的工作是在南加州。我要彻底改变我的职业生涯和工作在其他行业。我不知道,我喜欢骑自行车行业。有很多其他的事情我有兴趣。但是我没有一个路线图,我做到了。但在2010年发生了什么当我知道我是真实的,我的生活改变的更好的在几分钟内做出的决定。 And...

詹妮弗Yoffy09:05

只是因为喜欢精神和情感的重量被解除或自由

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔09:11

…上述所有。我意识到我也花了近30年的我的生活通过一个小矩形或正方形。我想到了,我所有的朋友都在这个行业。我所做的一切仍集中在行业工作之外,所有党派我去,我去了所有的事件,所有我做的是旅游照片,我没有别的。我把整个余生不变,所有这些其他的兴趣和热情我我就取消了30年,第二个我重新发现了这些,不仅我的生活好多了,但是我只是觉得财富,更全面的等一个人以某种奇怪的方式我觉得喜欢我的智力水平上升,因为我突然能够对话的事情并没有把围绕摄影。是惊讶我的生活在一种积极的方式也改为我接触到的人,我突然不仅仅是只专注于照片的人,我突然与金融人,你知道,环境的人,科学家,和各种各样的人,我想,哇。圣达菲是一个有趣的城市,因为对于这样一个小城市,这里有大量的事情发生。这里我们有一个科技行业在80年代,圣达菲被称为信息台面。所以你有这里的科技世界的开端,你有洛斯阿拉莫斯国家实验室社区,你有科学,你有空间,你有艺术世界,摄影世界,出版的世界,这里有很多。 And so every night, I was just venturing out meeting new people in new fields and saying, Wow, why didn't I do this all along? I think, I think what it made me realize more than anything else, for me was that photography was, and still is an incredibly powerful resource. But I think it's even more powerful as a small part of a much larger idea.

詹妮弗Yoffy数

你认为同样重量的一部分,或者,你知道,举起的重量,或者是为你创造了精神的空间,你知道的,当你为自己工作作为一个摄影师,你必须,很近视,你真的关注你。如果你不是争夺,你知道,或者争夺下一份工作,或转让,或美术馆的展览,,,你知道,你可以更宽宏大量的。我的意思是,你还参与摄影,我的意思是,你为自己拍摄,但在不同的类别,你这样做,你可以,爱摄影,教导和激励和帮助别人,感觉也许更符合你的价值观才是你想要关注的。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔12:10

是的,我认为我想全职摄影师这些天,无论你是谁,在什么层面上,不管你是一个低级别专业或精英,专业,它可以是非常不健康的时间,你必须专注思考自己和你的事业。我的朋友还是我的朋友,你永远不会有一个与他们谈论任何其他比他们,和他们的职业和工作。这只是它的方式。你知道,如果你的朋友,这就是你会得到的。因为他们的整个世界正上方。在某些情况下,该行业要求。我的意思是,现在真的很难谋生,尤其是那些我称之为谋生经典意义上的像真正的赚钱,你知道的,有医疗保险,把东西为退休,有一个存档,他们许可年的工作后,这些人都是少之又少。年轻一代,在某些方面,不明白这些人是如何运作的。然后你把社交媒体。,我知道对我来说丧钟,为我钉在棺材上的最后一根钉子是Facebook降落的时候。 Here's the crazy part. I've sort of developed a reputation as someone who deleted social media, which also came with two years of hate mail. And I mean, you can't believe the stuff that people..., you know when I deleted social like 10 years ago, man, two years of just incredible hate mail, but I went to...

詹妮弗Yoffy37

他们嫉妒,他们没有勇气去做。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔13:40

你知道,这是奇怪的。这是说你太笨的人了解才华的平台。你知道,这些都是有瘾的人没有任何其它事情可做。他们没有他们不能看任何其他方式。但我去纽约,我在做一个在曼哈顿拍摄,我与这个客户合作,我听过,她是第一个使用Facebook这个词。我想,哇,Facebook是什么?和她告诉我。所以我回到加州,之前我在Facebook上的朋友。我想,嘿,这事真的很酷。和Twitter一样。 You know, I got on Twitter when Twitter was just simply people telling where they were in what they were doing. There was no massive, you know, underground marketing campaign under every single tweet. I was at a creative festival in Amsterdam and this guy said Twitter and I looked at Eileen, who's the founder of Blurb, we were together on that trip and I go, what's Twitter? And she goes, I don't know let's you know, figure out what Twitter is. Social [media] to me is what turned professional photography inside out, and not in a good way. And it's gone down a path that I cannot see it ever recovering from.

詹妮弗Yoffy事故

只是分享,而不是等待吗?等到不像一个图像或身体的工作是解决或作为输出的压力,这是不可持续的。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔15:06

它的一个延伸,我们谈论一分钟前,那就是,作为一个专业,全职的创意常常意味着你花太多时间思考自己。这是真正的总是如此。这是很难是一个专业的,做这些做这些事情。然后突然间,社会出现。和社会需要的这个想法,概念和放大它成倍增长。突然,你的人生目标是让自己的网络世界美味版本。这是一个假的,假的,不切实际的,常常愚蠢的版本的自己,你想是美味,和大家一起玩,因为他们知道这不是真实的。和我们现在的客户,经常在会议上,当客户正在讨论摄影师,没有讨论的工作,它与工作无关。

詹妮弗Yoffy15:57

对吧?这是粉丝的数量。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔15:59

它的数据和指标。就是这样,他们谈论。甚至没有人确定什么是好的和坏的了。这并非总是如此。但它是,它是在一个水平的惊人的多么频繁。的,有点奇怪。所以对我来说,我当时想,好吧,当客户开始要求工作,你知道,,工作是Facebook的主要交付机制,我想,我什么都不想做。我将告诉客户,我不是我帮你拍这个,但我不把它在Facebook上。我不想让它在Facebook上,有很多直接的阻力。我喜欢,好吧,再一次,另一个指标,我可能不会渴望从事摄影。 I think the single most destructive platform I've seen is Instagram. I've never seen anything like it.

詹妮弗Yoffy16

它使我疯狂当....所以,p 'eople提交Yoffy按他们的188bet金宝搏登真人官网项目,我看一切。我应对一切。不一定在一天。但你知道,最终通常在一个月内。当人们送我你知道,我有这个项目。我一直在做它。你可以看到Instagram的图像。你是在和我开玩笑吗?像,似乎我就是疯了,因为它不是,它不是测序。 It's not curated. It's just, you know, thrown up there. And also, to me represents such a lack of intentionality, and professionalism in terms of, you know, you want to sign up to work with me for the next two years to publish and sell your book, and you're sending me your Instagram link? Like, how about just a PDF? I don't know, you know, throwing it out there. Just just an idea.

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔17:39

是的,我认为,你知道,我……

詹妮弗Yoffy17:42

这样随意的和…

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔17:43

这是偶然的。这是,你知道....看,那些该平台构建的,非常聪明的人。他们知道他们在做什么。之后,我们知道因为他们承认事实。如果你正在寻找一个交付机制,内爆一个创造性的思维,你不能建造任何东西。我从未见过任何东西更好、更有效地这样做。我的意思是,有多少次我去过节日照片你听到业内专业人士说,引用,这个房间里的每个人都Instagram。在我的头,我去,等一下,让我直说了吧,我们应该是最富有创意的人行走地球表面和你想做的第一件事就是把我们所有人在同一漏斗。这是最可悲的车道,你看看这个行业去看,毫无疑问,行业正摇摇欲坠。 Because that is not not the way to do it. And you know, Instagram to me, that was the first network I deleted. And I literally detoxed for two weeks, I physically detoxed, where, when I would be between tasks online, my brain would default to Instagram and I caught myself and I thought, holy cow, and I don't have a physical addiction problem. It runs in my family to a certain degree, but I didn't get it. But I was like, wow, I kind of feel like this thing has a little bit of control over me that I'm not happy. Two weeks later, I sort of was like surfing, you come out of the barrel and you you're like, wow, that was incredible. And you turn and look back and I look back on that period of my life where I was on Instagram, I kind of find I'm kind of embarrassed. And I get why people use it. There's no question of the strategic and the fact that everyone has bought into such a degree is what allows it to thrive. But life outside of social to me, and I still have a Twitter account, I have a YouTube channel now, so I'm a total hypocrite in some ways. But those are primarily... you know, when I deleted social It was so long ago, that Blurb at the time asked me to keep my Twitter account. If I was doing this today, they would ask me, they would have asked me to keep my Instagram account, but at the time they were said, you know, can you keep your Twitter account? I said, yeah, I don't want to be a jerk about the whole thing. I'll keep it. But I really felt a lot better. And to your point, you know, occasionally I'll do a portfolio review. And people walk up with an iPad. And I kind of feel the same way. Because when I see work on an iPad, it's typically not edited very well, there's far too many images, there's no penalty for the, you know, keeping things in the digital space. And I've done portfolio reviews where the, where the reviewers to my right and left, were so far superior to me, it's not even funny. They're like legends in photography. And I remember Jeff Dune is in LA put together this incredible portfolio review a few years ago. And I'm looking at the lineup of reviewers, and I'm thinking why am I even on this list? Like I don't, I don't deserve to be on this list. But the two people next to me, I sat down and I was like, Oh, my God, these are my heroes, there's a hero. And after the first couple of people, one of these folks leans into me and says, Why would anyone show their work on a on an iPad? You know, where? Why are they not printing, like, show me a box of prints? And I was like, Look, it's a whole different ballgame now, like, get ready, because at some point, it's just gonna be a phone or you know, something, but...

詹妮弗Yoffy21:01

对的,正确的。让我空投。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔21:03

是的,这是,嗯,你知道,这是不同的。它只是一个不同的时代。这不是这不是更好或更糟。它只是一个不同的,完全不同的时间。你知道,我回顾我的职业生涯的开端,我没有社交,没有电脑,没有手机。我的整个职业生涯是基于一个固定电话,叫人在纽约,我不知道。,某种程度上它工作。奇怪的是,这些人我不知道会回答他们的电话。你知道,我将打电话在曼哈顿,他们就像一些编辑,你好。你知道,我住在拉古纳海滩,我真的很想为你的杂志工作; oh, well, hey, send me a portfolio. Now, you know, those people are never gonna get them in person on the phone. And there's 800 ways of communicating with him. It's just a different scenario. There's so many things about today that are, that are incredible. And then there were so many things about the pace of life back in those days, that was much more, I guess, humanistic than it is today. You know, the fact of not having a phone and a computer was actually a really good thing in some ways.

詹妮弗Yoffy22:10

你会说什么?除了放弃摄影,我们讨论过,是什么职业决策或曲折的命运,你以一种积极的方向?

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔海啸

让我想想,开始研究其他领域,更加全面的。

詹妮弗Yoffy22:30

顺便说一句,我爱你的图书列表在您的移动装置。是的,我想,这是一些很好的建议。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔22:37

是的,阅读对我是,我只是搁置我读在我的职业生涯,但不喜欢我现在所做的。和奇怪的是当我删除社会第一次,我做了二次决定当我觉得我的大脑说上网,而不是这样做,只是阅读。仅第一年,我读80本书,我读了80,第二年80,第三年,突然间,你可能会说,哇,我觉得聪明,我觉得我知道超过快门速度。所以阅读和拓展,重返很多我喜欢的东西,更全面的。而且,像你之前提到过,但是我工作很酷的一件事是,我可以帮助别人。更充实,我说,哦,好吧,你知道的,这里有一个人正试图做某事用照相或出版明智或任何有一个谜,他们不知道如何算出。不管出于什么原因,我的小扭曲的背景,我可能有一个问题的答案的谜语。只是很小的事情。我的意思是,当我开始一个YouTube频道大约一年前,一次又一次,因为广告是要求运动内容,我不知道如何去做电影,我说,好的,我需要学习如何做到这一点。和我提到的事情在这些电影非常随便,我想每个人都知道的事情。 And all of a sudden people would be like, what was that you said, like, for example, box speed, rating of a piece of analog film, Tri-X, or whatever it is, and not shooting at a box speed, but shooting at different. . . but people are like what are you talking about? And I'm like, no way, I thought it was sort of common global knowledge. Another thing that I started to do that it took me way, way too long to understand was collaborate, and collaborating through the travels at Blurb, I was able to meet a lot of talented people that I would have never met had it not been for the Blurb job and I would have never met them had I not stopped working as a photographer. And all of a sudden, I'm around these people. And I'm like, wow, these people are way more advanced than I am. And what I figured out early on was that my gift in the collaboration process is getting the ball rolling. That's the end of my scope.

詹妮弗Yoffy24:50

你激活。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔24:51

是的,我说,嘿,我们应该做X, Y,和Z,人们很忙,他们走了,我没有时间去做。我说,嗯,我会让它开始。然后我与人合作更有天赋。第二我开始合作,工作一个更好,更多样化,更概念,少了很多线性的。,我几乎开始增加我的知识通过[或]基于他人。我的意思是,我已经能够做一些真正令人惊叹的合作在过去的几年里,改变了我的整个哲学创造性

詹妮弗Yoffy25:26

你能给一个例子吗?

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔25:27

是的,所以我,我会说我可能会回到2012年,我认为这是2012左右。我遇到了一个叫克洛伊费雷的设计师在悉尼。通过广告和克洛伊做了一本书。这是一本关于厄玛繁荣,架构师。但克洛伊所做的书不像其他书我看过,通过广告。的只有一个,已经完成的数以百万计的书籍,她创造了完全独特的东西。和它的博弈系统允许创建这个非常特别的书。我就像,哇。这是一本设计改变后你买它。你不得不削减每个页面在这本书用直尺。 And she gave you instructions. And I'm like, never seen that before.

詹妮弗Yoffy26:19

是的,太棒了。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔26:21

我去了澳大利亚,几次广告。第一次,我遇见了她,克洛伊就像一个杰作。她是一个双专业。无论如何,她现在离开学校和工作。但她是一个非常熟练的摄影师和非常熟练的设计师和设计师的一份出版物。所以几年后,我在佛罗里达与摄影师安德鲁·考夫曼和我们决定我们要做这个协作摄影项目在迈阿密,我们出去拍摄连续48小时,我投篮偏光板,他拍摄彩色胶卷。当我们完成了,我们看了看整体,他想,我们要做什么?我说,我想做的是把这克洛伊费雷。我喜欢,我不知道她会用它做任何....果然,她回信,我会这样做如果你让我把你的照片。 And I was like, no problem. Andrew Kaufman was like, what, what are you talking about? And I was like, trust me, she will do something with this that you will never see coming. And sure enough, we did this book called Magic City, which was a book designed to be cut into pieces. And I went back to Miami, we did a second book called Magic City Two. And it's a book design where all the internal pages fold, and they reveal a secondary design that you would never see if you hadn't folded the pages.

詹妮弗Yoffy33

哇,那太棒了。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔27:35

2000万或1500万本书的简介从来没有人做过这样的一本书。和那本书,你不能相信发生了什么书。但这是另一个转折,是我们专门决定不让那本书公开出售。这本书唯一的办法是有一个,报价,个人经历的三个人。,这将有所不同。什么都没有,你知道的,邪恶的,但是,这将取决于我们。第二,人们找不到那本书。T 'hey想要多1000倍。人们会发疯想让这本书的副本。最近一个教会了我很多东西。然后,大约在两年前,这是最后collab,我仍然工作,我希望会持续很长,长时间——年。 I met, there's a photographer in Orange County, a friend of mine, and he calls me and he goes, Hey, there's this guy that wants to meet you. He's a friend of mine. And I said, Okay, and my buddy was having a birthday party for his two year old. And so we all went to this two year old birthday party. And I meet this guy...

詹妮弗Yoffy28:40

所有最好的合作开始。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔28:42

我的意思是,一个两岁的生日聚会非常有趣。我的意思是,有蛋糕,有糖果,有尖叫,这是每个成人真正想要什么。我见到这个人,他的名字叫瑞克长者。他是一个服装品牌。一个品牌叫超出西雅图。我不知道里克,我不知道,我不知道任何关于他。我们坐下来和我们说瑞克从来没有一个专业的摄影师。但他非常感兴趣,希望,是一个完整的摄影爱好者。他拍摄。他说十分钟会面后,他说,我们一起去做一些事情。 We're doing a project together. And I was like, no, we're not, you know, I'm busy. I don't know you. I don't know what you're talking about. He's like, we're gonna do something. And I'm like, no, we're not and but there was like, some endearing thing about Rick and he's like, so driven. So he keeps passing through Orange County and he's like, let's go to lunch, let's go to lunch. So I would hang out with him. And he was very interesting guy to hang out with because his background was completely different than mine. And I go What are you talking about? If we're going to do something. He goes, you know, let's do a printed something together. And I go, well, what are we going to do? What's the goal? I go Blurb and Beyond have nothing in common. Like, what are we going to do? He goes, we're going to do something that just promotes understanding. We're going to print whatever we want to print and it's going to promote understanding. And I was like, No, I go too time consuming, too costly. It's going to be a nightmare. I'm not doing this. This is something he reminds me of all the time. He always goes, You said no, you said no, you said no. I was like, Yeah, I did. This is not going to be easy. And so we still hadn't really defined it yet. And then he just kept wearing me down. And he wore me down. And I realized, I was like, maybe I am the one that is the weak link here. Maybe I need to rethink this. And so I thought, Oh, I know how to get rid of them. I'll just talk to him about what it's going to cost to do this. And then he'll be like, I'm not gonna pay for that. And I'm like, Well, I'm not paying for it. You know?

詹妮弗Yoffy30:39

这是你的想法…

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔30:40

你的想法,你会为此付出代价。我说,好吧,你想做什么?我们决定做电子杂志,一年两次的事情。60页,平装,没什么奇特的。这不是一个珍贵的对象。这不是幻想。这不是这个想法。锌只是一个催化剂,让人们感兴趣的故事在里面。和我们想要的故事可以是任何东西。我对他说的第一件事就是,我们要雇佣一个设计师。 And, I was like, he's, he's gonna balk and say, I don't want to pay for that. And I was like, Look, I'm not doing it if we don't have a designer, because neither one of us is good enough to do it. And so I reached out to Zoe Sadokierski in Sydney, who I had also met in Australia prior. And I'd done an interview with her where I hired a film crew, and we came in and went to UTS and did this interview with her. And I was so blown away by her as a person. And also she had her own publishing imprint, she founded the Australian book design Association, she'd been designer of the year and she was just this most down to earth. I mean, I have no background in design. So when I'm talking to a designer, I feel like Crocodile Dundee, like I just, I don't, I don't fit in, I can't talk that, and Zoe was so accommodating, and kind, and also, at the same time, just gung ho about trying new things. And I went to her and said, you know, do you know of anyone who would be interested in designing this zine? And she goes, What is it? And I go, it's a zine to promote understanding through design and art, dialogue, and art. And we're going to print whatever stories we want, whether they're from professionals or non professionals, it does not matter. If we think it's interesting, we'll print it. And she goes, I want to do it. You know, that's what my life is about. I want to be the designer. And so we got her. And I kept thinking, Okay, what else can I tack onto this list that will drive Rick away from this project, and there was nothing to put on there. So we had the first issues out, it's sold out, the second issue right before I called you today, I was sending the proof off to Zoe for corrections. And we're about to do issue two and issue three is full. And I have two people for issue four. That has been the collaboration experiment. It is not easy. Anyone who tells you that it is easy is crazy. It is a battle to do something like this, it takes so much time and energy and money. It's a very expensive process. And then convincing those around you, you know, explaining this to Blurb. The marketing department, even though there's Blurb - our large order services is printing it, but there's nothing in the zine about Blurb, that's not the point. There's nothing in it about Beyond. And so it's a really hard sell. And, you know, people are like, well, what's the goal? And it's like, just to put this stuff out and get people talking about these stories. Yeah, it's it's fun. It's interesting and different. And you know, we're combining some of the contributors are people I know, some have come through the submission portal on the website, there's all different kinds. I have learned so much in the last year, about even furthering my education about collaboration, about what it means for brands to partner together without overpowering the project, about paying, you know, how do you pay contributors? How do you market and promote them? You know, building a website, building a community, all of this stuff and trying to do it without selling out and going down a path that we don't want to go down. You know, I'm not gonna beg people to follow us on Instagram to get this to get this group of people, there's better ways of doing things. It's like a second

詹妮弗Yoffy34:10

这是令人兴奋的。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔34:11

就像第二个免费工作是它是什么。

詹妮弗Yoffy34:15

我知道这是什么感觉,因为我发布照片书。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔诗34:18

完全正确。这就像当你起床,你去,我同意这样做吗?但是后来发生了一件事。的贡献者叫我两个星期前,非常典型的家伙。他说,嘿,我只是在欧洲出售一些指纹收集器。我走了,哦,那是伟大的路要走。和他走,我问他如何找到了我。他说,AG23杂志,我想,我想,哦,我的上帝,这是工作。它的发生。慢慢的像建筑,建立。 When I think about the future, and that's really fun to like, help someone else realize anything positive in the creative space. It's a lot of fun, and we haven't scratched the surface yet. So this collaboration and others totally changed my life.

詹妮弗Yoffy35:03

这是惊人的。所以我对你的最后一个问题。嗯,所以我们谈论决定你做,好吗?有大错误或东西你认为当时糟糕的决定在你的事业吗?

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔35:21

是的,我的意思是,有一些一些小事情,有很多事情在事后,我就会以不同的方式完成,你知道的。我就会呆在99年辞职,或97年,我就会辞职,我认为我的生活将会是非常非常不同。如果我这样做,可能更好。不是更喜欢在金钱问题上,只是更加多样化。但也有其他的事情,对某些工作。我有一个朋友,一个很好的朋友在加州,不幸的是现在有点病了,在生活中做的不是那么好。但他对我非常有影响力的当我第一次搬到加州。他是一个设计师和摄影师。,他对我说,有一次,他说,你说不的工作比你的更重要。我就像一堆废话,我喜欢把T恤。 It's a cliche. You know, I was like, I know everything, and you are nothing. And you know, low and behold, a few weeks later, I took a commercial job that was more money than I'd ever made on a job in my life. And I was like, I am a superstar. But during the meeting, I had this sinking suspicion that this was going to go sideways. And sure enough, it went sideways. And I spent two years battling with this client. And it made my life a living hell, I was waking up in the middle of the night and going, why, why? Why did I do this? And my buddy was, like, you know, very politely saying, look, I told you, when you have those feelings, and you know something is not right, or you're looking at a client and saying, I think they're gonna go sideways, you got to bail. Because even if you need the money, it's not worth it. The other mistake I made was, I spent too many years shooting other people's photographs and not my own. And again, you can make a living and there's a lot of people doing that, that are perfectly happy. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. But I knew that I was an imposter that underneath this trench coat, I was somebody completely different. And that there was probably not a place for me in the industry, but that I still wanted to be that person and wanted to make those right...

詹妮弗Yoffy37:27

你扮演的角色,不适合你。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔37:29

就是这样。一旦我不干了,我说,哦,我这个人我真的是。那是很有启发性的。但在主要方面,其他主要的错误。我不知道我是如此幸运,落在我的脚,有这么多帮助别人。当我开始在摄影中,我协助。我花了数年时间帮助那些摄影师救了我自己。他们教我如何做我的税。他们教我如何旅行。他们教我如何跟客户说话。 They taught me how to speak about my own work. These folks really bent over backwards to help me. You know, Eileen Gittins, who founded Blurb, she's been a mentor of mine from the second I met her, I was like, I've never met anyone like her. She was the first like, highly powered, eccentric female entrepreneur I'd ever met. And just like, I would hang out with her. And I would be taking notes nonstop, like, Oh my god, I feel like I haven't figured out how to live yet. And then you meet her, and you're like, wow, I'm way behind, I better get my act together and start getting better. So I've been fortunate, I don't think I've made any massive, tragic mistakes. And some of the negative things that have happened to me over my life have ultimately turned out to be in some weird way positive, you know. I had a long term illness and that made me rethink everything. And, you know, I sort of came through that and was like, Wow, I've I'm actually a little sort of pleased that I went through that misery.

詹妮弗Yoffy38:58

好吧,看来你也方法一切敞开。你知道,你遇到的人,和你有经验,而且因为你不害怕主当你有机会,或者有一种直觉,你应该。如果人们,(我真的对自己说),你知道,能得到正面的,而不是把太多的期望应该如何应该想什么或应该是这样,就可以在当下,少Instagram,把它。

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔39:36

我认为是视角。你知道,世界上绝大多数的人正在寻找食物、水和住所。就是这样。他们不关心摄影,他们不会不关心你或我或一个项目。他们只是不他们不能努力生存。我认为当你意识到,它把事物的角度来看,这样好了,你知道,这是世界末日都结束所有的我在做什么在这个项目?可能不会。我需要记住这一点。我认为这使你周围的人更快乐,更健康,当你有这些观点。同时,我认为我们有这样一个机会,创意人员有责任在社会扮演最具创意卡片他们可以在任何时候,因为社会是等着我们。 They are waiting for creatives to show them an alternative path about how to see the world and how to navigate the world. That is a huge responsibility. And if you're conforming, and you're not the person who you know you are, because you're conforming to an industry standard, that's not helping anyone. And it may be a great short play, but it won't work in the long run. So it's hard. And I think when you distance yourself, you know, for me, it was interesting when I quit photography, and even today when people ask me, if I'm at a party and people say what do you do? And I go, I work for a publishing platform, I work for a printing..., you know I work for Blurb. And I have friends that will say, No, No, No, No, No, he doesn't. He's a photographer. And I'm like, I haven't been a photographer in over a decade, I will never be a photographer again. It's not what I identify as because it doesn't really benefit me or anyone else. Right? It's just it is what it is. And so I love the option and the ability to take a step back and look at things in a broader space. Like photo books to me are their testimony, their history, they're going to gain power. The longer we go into history, the further we go, the better the books that you're printing today are going to be they're going to be more impactful and more relevant to me, the further we go. And that is an interesting pursuit and the idea of visual communications in our species going back to cave paintings, this is the same story we've been telling since then. And so it is an integral part of who we are and what we're doing as a species. But we have to keep it in perspective that it's not the be all end all. My brother and I are completely twisted. And my growing up in Texas, my brother and I would be like, how long can you go without taking a shower? I'd be like, I can go a little bit longer than you. And then we had breakdowns like Does swimming in a lake count?

詹妮弗Yoffy42:14

对吗? ! ?

丹尼尔·米尔诺尔42:17

如果我只是帮我剃了个光头也许我不需要洗澡吗?所以没有限制,我和哥哥永远突破。所以范是像一个五星级度假村相比,我哥哥和我在做什么。